in her own words...Cassandra Wilson

in her own words...Cassandra Wilson

Date Posted: November 02 2011

Written By: Chicago Jazz

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Jazz vocalist Cassandra Wilson is described by critic Gary Giddins as “a singer blessed with an unmistakable timbre and attack who has expanded the playing field” by incorporating blues, country and folk music into her work. Wilson began playing piano at six, guitar by the age of twelve and was working as a vocalist by the mid-seventies, singing a wide variety of material. After moving to New York City in the early eighties, Wilson met saxophonist Steve Coleman and became one of the founding members of the M-Base Collective.

At the completion of her stint with M-Base, Wilson sought a more acoustic context for her vocal expression. She signed with Blue Note Records in 1992 and released her landmark album, Blue Light ‘Til Dawn, which would pave the way for a new generation of jazz singers seeking an approach and repertoire that challenged the supremacy of the American Standard songbook.

Wilson has continued interpreting in fresh and creative ways vintage blues, country and folk music up until the present day. Her awards include two Grammys, the Django D’Or, the Edison Music Award, and a marker on the Mississippi Blues Trail. She also performed one of the leading roles in Wynton Marsalis’ Blood on the Fields, the first jazz work to receive a Pulitzer Prize.

Chicago Jazz Magazine: You started playing piano and guitar at an early age, but how did you get started in the jazz world?

Cassandra Wilson: That’s really the first music that I heard.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: From your parents?

Wilson: Yeah. My father was a native of Chicago, and I remember that being the first music that I heard.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Where did you grow up?

Wilson: In Jackson, Mississippi.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: So that’s where you developed your blues roots.

Wilson: Absolutely.

Chicago Jazz Magazine: You are diverse enough as a singer that you can work several different styles. How do you differentiate jazz from other styles?

Wilson: Well, I really look at jazz as being more of a discipline than a style. It’s broader than just a genre. It’s an approach to music, and the discipline really involves a lifelong dedication to exploring the form, the possibilities, and learning as much of that is tradition. Basing whatever you do of the tradition, always being aware of the importance of taking the music to another place.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: When did you have some idea that you were going to make music a professional career?

Wilson: It was not really until my mid-twenties.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: What were your other options at the time?

Wilson: Well, I studied Math Communications, and I have a degree in that. The first career I actually sought was a career in television, as a producer. And I was also very interested in film. Music was always there, and my mother encouraged me to get a degree in something other than music so that I would be able to work through the tough times.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: What was it that happened in your mid-twenties that precipitated your career in music?

Wilson: Well, I moved from New Orleans to East Orange, New Jersey, and tried to find work in that market. It was very difficult. So I started going to jam sessions in the city, and I got some gigs. So I was able to get a gig easier through my music than with my degree! [laughs]


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Looking back, what do you consider some of the highlights in your career?

Wilson: Wow. I think there have been many.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: While you are thinking of that, was there a moment, a concert, a recording session, or an interview, or just a moment, where you said, you know what, I’ve made it?

Wilson: No, I never think about the work in terms of “making it.” I don’t really know what that means. You know, I don’t think you are ever satisfied in your work. That’s part of what keeps the drive going.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: When you moved to New York, you became one of the members of the M-Base Collective. Explain the M-Base Collective.

Wilson: I’m one of the founding members––one of the original members. M-Base stands for Macro-Basic Array of Structured Extemporization. The short of it is that we joined together because we had similar approaches to the business of music, as well as to the making of the music and the creating of the music. During the time that we were all together in New York City, there was a real strong emphasis on the neo-traditional approach. We were really more interested in integrating the music that we had grown up listening to, into the jazz repertoire, so that became the touchstone to opening your ears to what’s happening around you and being true to that, because it’s apart of your history, apart of your musical history. So it’s just about being honest with that music, and working it within “traditional” jazz.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Just to confirm: When you say “extemporizations,” you are talking about improvisation, right?

Wilson: Yes.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Are you still involved with M-Base?

Wilson: Yeah, it’s not like an organization; it’s a philosophy; it’s an approach as well.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: “Structured extemporization”––that’s a pretty good definition of jazz.

Wilson: Yes it is.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Do you still perform on instruments?

Wilson: Yes, on piano and guitar.

Chicago Jazz Magazine: Do you prefer singing with just a mic in your hand or while playing an instrument?

Wilson: Funny you should ask that. I was just speaking with one of my mentors, Jesse Robinson, who is a great guitar player. He’s always encouraged me to play. And I was telling him that I sing differently when I have the instrument in my hand; it feels as if my voice is more fluid. And he said, “Well, that’s the way it is supposed to be. Once you have an attachment to an instrument it helps to guide you; it helps to guide the voice.”


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Other singers have expressed that same sentiment––they feel that the two work synergistically. Also, in listening to your recordings you often seem more comfortable in a sparse instrumental setting. That’s not to say that you sound uncomfortable when there are more instruments, but you sound “in your element” when there is just a guitar backing you. Is that true?

Wilson: Well, it’s something different I’m feeling. There’s more space to take up, so you tend to take up more space if there is only one or two instruments. I enjoy being inside of the band that I have now, because each one of the musicians is a very strong soloist. I feel that I have a type of engagement with the band members that goes far beyond the typical relationship that singers have with a band.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: For younger musicians who may be reading this interview, why do you think it is important for young musicians to learn the history, to learn and study the careers of legendary jazz musicians, and to learn the standards?

Wilson: That should be mandatory. If you are going to take this music seriously, if you are going to become a jazz musician, and have a jazz discipline, then that is your cornerstone. That is the building block that you need in order to create your own voice. I know it seems like a paradox, but I remember Picasso saying that before you can paint, or abstract and create your own style, you have to understand the particulars of the art. So that is an essential step––an essential part of becoming a jazz musician.

Chicago Jazz Magazine: Is there any other business advice you’d give to up-and-coming musicians?

Wilson: Well right now, I think it is wide open. Go and grab it––seize the moment, because the industry has never been like this. The Internet has really leveled the playing field to an amazing extent. I’d say now is the time to take control. You have the power as an artist to control your business.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: What are some of the biggest obstacles that you have had to face in your career?

Wilson: Well, let’s see. I don’t even look at it that way. I can’t remember obstacles, because obstacles don’t exist for me in this circumstance. There are challenges. I look at it that way. I prefer to use that word because if you look at it like an obstacle, then it seems like something you have to work hard to overcome. If it’s a challenge, then it’s something that you can enjoy.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: What are some of the biggest challenges you’ve encountered in your career?

Wilson: Well, I would say learning the music––understanding the vocabulary, and being able to write, being able to transcribe music, which is still one of the greatest challenges that I have. There are so many ways at looking at the theory behind music––there are so many ways that you can name a chord. It’s very interesting to me that you go from one group of musicians to the next, and they each look at changes in different ways. Working with a lot of men is a challenge––as a woman in a man’s world, that’s a challenge, getting the communication right.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Is the industry sexist in or is it merely a matter of different ways of communicating?

Wilson: Well, I think the industry reflects society. It is very difficult for woman to gain recognition for anything. So what happens in the music world is a microcosm of our world––they’re pretty much the same. It’s challenging! [laughs]


Chicago Jazz Magazine: That word again! Musically, whether you use an iPod, a CD player, or whatever your choice of listening devices, what type of things are you listening to these days?

Wilson: I’m on YouTube a lot now, so I listen to whatever pops up. Today I was listening to “Sweet Home Chicago”––various renditions of it. I listened to Buddy Guy’s version. And I’ve been listening to “Honeyboy” Edwards.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Buddy Guy is from Chicago and “Honeyboy,” who just recently passed away, is from your neck of the woods, Mississippi.

Wilson: Yes, he was ninety-six years old.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Let’s talk about your recent European tour. What were some of the highlights?

Wilson: It is fascinating. I love touring Europe. We did performances in Italy and Spain and we did two performances in France. The audiences vary from city to city, and of course they vary from country to country. But that was mostly the Mediterranean, and those people are very warm. They are not afraid to move; they aren’t afraid to get up out of their seats and enjoy the concert.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: They are expressive.

Wilson: Yes, they are very expressive.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: What part of Italy were you in?

Wilson: We did Pescara; Tivoli, which is right outside of Rome; we played near Florence; and the last day was in Genoa.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Did you perform in Paris?

Wilson: No, we played Sète, which is in the south of France, and we played Vannes, which is on the Atlantic coast.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Didn’t you also perform in Amsterdam?

Wilson: Yes, that was earlier. There were two parts to the tour. The first part we did concerts in Amsterdam, for the Hague Jazz Festival, and we played in Stockholm, and we played in Latvia, which was very interesting.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Is it true that the crowds in Latvia are large.

Wilson: Yes, we had a substantial audience. It was very exciting.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: How do the Europeans view jazz?

Wilson: Well, European audiences, like the Japanese audiences, probably have more people that study jazz music than the average American jazz audience––and there’s more information taught about jazz.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Did you travel with your own musicians or did you hire musicians over there?

Wilson: I always travel with my own band.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Let’s discuss some aspects of your singing. Did you have formal voice training?

Wilson: No, I first started out as an instrumentalist; the voice came later––much later. I didn’t realize that I sang until I was about twelve years old. And I started playing music when I was five.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: And what prompted you to sing?

Wilson: At that time I was listening a lot to the local FM station––it was very exciting. We had such an interesting mix of folk music, and blues and rock-and-roll, funk, soul and R&B. We used to be able to hear all that music on one station. So that, I think, had a profound impact on how I grew into music.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Who would you say are some of the jazz singers who had a big influence on you?

Wilson: Well, there are many, but I would say that the biggest influences came from Abbey Lincoln, Betty Carter, Sarah Vaughan, and Nina Simone.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Great names. Let’s touch on each of them. What does Abbey Lincoln do that struck you?

Wilson: She’s a consummate storyteller. I’ve always been impressed by her gifts as a lyricist and her ability to give you a very in-depth, emotional view into a song, into a piece of music. She is a great writer––she writes lyrics, she writes music––and she’s also a painter!


Chicago Jazz Magazine: How about Sarah Vaughan, a fellow instrumentalist?

Wilson: That’s it right there; she’s an instrumentalist. Sarah’s one of those singers who can out-scat the horns. She can improvise with the horns. She was a virtuoso.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: What are your feelings on scatting? It’s been said most people shouldn’t scat.

Wilson: Well, I think it’s like a period piece––it comes from another time. So when you hear people scat, they’re usually recalling the scat of people who have gone before them, like Sarah and Ella, the great scatters. I think that’s great; it’s wonderful to be able to do it, but only if you can do it well. If you can’t do it as well as they did, you should probably stay away from it.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Getting back to your singers, how about Betty Carter?

Wilson: Great scatter! [laughs] She was a model improviser. When you listen to her music you can hear how she is able to break down the components. I’ve always appreciated her rhythmic sense. She created her own style. She doesn’t improvise like anyone else. I think that is really important. If you are going to do it you’ve got to come up with your own language.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: You share that view with Carmen McRae. She thought Betty Carter was Number One. What about Nina Simone? She had a different style from the other three.

Wilson: Yeah, she was very different. I think that’s why I love her so much, because she chose her own path. She made her own break. She was initially a classical artist, and she did not throw that away––she kept everything. Her piano playing is extraordinary. You can hear the deep classical roots in it. On top of that, when she’s singing, you hear very powerful, emotional phrasing. That is the amazing thing to me about her.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Now that you mention it, you can hear the Nina Simone influence in some of your work. That’s a great compliment to you. How much of jazz singing do you think can be taught, and what has to be there naturally?

Wilson: I don’t know if I’m qualified to answer that question. I have never taught jazz vocals, and I’ve never received instruction.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: In another vein, then, what’s the best advice that you have received from a fellow musician that has informed your singing?

Wilson: The best advice was from Steve Coleman––and it has stayed with me throughout my career. He impressed upon me the importance of learning from the masters but creating your own voice.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: And he was with you in the founding of the M-Base Collective?

Wilson: Yes, he’s an alto sax player. And he’s also from Chicago.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Do you have a preferred style of jazz to perform?

Wilson: Yes, I call it “now.” [laughs]


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Part of that extemporaneous approach! Getting back to your singing idols, did you ever get a chance to meet any of them?

Wilson: Yeah. I was blessed to meet all of them actually––every one of those Big Four. Actually, I performed on the same bill with Betty Carter and with Nina Simone and with Abbey Lincoln. I was never on the same bill with Sarah Vaughan.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Were there any disappointments in actually meeting them versus what you had anticipated?

Wilson: No, my admiration actually grew more. When you are able to connect with the person, as opposed to connecting with the icon, then you are able to see that person as a human being. And so I think you gain more respect for them. They go through the same thing you do everyday, and yet they are able to turn into these icons once they get on the stage.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: For musicians perform exceptionally well on stage, doesn’t it almost have to be a part of who they are?

Wilson: I think the opposite. If you don’t create a separate entity, it’s almost like being a schizophrenic. I think it is a positive schizophrenia! [laughs] I think you have to reserve that space or that personality for that special environment on stage. If you don’t, then once you get off the stage and you carry that personality with you in your daily affairs, I think you would not be able to cope.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: It’s been said that jazz is about great moments. To your way of thinking, what are some of the iconic jazz performances?

Wilson: Billie Holiday––“Strange Fruit.” Ella Fitzgerald doing “Mack the Knife.” She had a live performance in Berlin where she forgets the lyric. It doesn’t get any better than that. That’s “now” music!


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Talk about extemporaneous––you know that wasn’t planned.

Wilson: No, you couldn’t plan that. Some of Miles’ stuff at the Blackhawk, in particular, “Bye Bye Blackbird.” I think that’s one of my favorites. Shoot, I could go on and on. I did a gig with Max Roach, he did his Freedom Now Suite and asked me to sing the part that Abbey had sung. And that was pretty deep.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: What an honor.

Wilson: You have no idea.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: How do you approach something like that? Do you do it in your own style or do you take elements from what she did? Obviously you didn’t want to copy her.

Wilson: I just had to be myself, because Abbey was already in there. I think that’s why he asked me to do it, because he knew Abbey was a great influence on me. I really didn’t have to modify anything; I was just pretty much being myself. I just let it happen.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: What a thrill.

Wilson: It was great to watch him up close. Whew!


Chicago Jazz Magazine: As both an instrumentalist and a singer, do you consider yourself primarily an instrumentalist or a singer?

Wilson: I think of myself as a musician first. I’m a singer that is a musician. And I understand where cats are coming from when they do that, because there are some singers out there who don’t have that kind of foundation. So they have a limited way of communication. There are some musicians who have an issue with that, and you can’t really blame them.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Let’s talk about Cassandra Wilson, the person, not the icon. What are some of your favorite movies?

Wilson: Daughters of the Dust by Julie Dash. Beloved.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Favorite actor/actress?

Wilson: Wow, I don’t really know who my favorite actor is. I love Angela Bassett. Laurence Fishburne. I like Linda Pierce. Emma Thompson, I love her.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: What do you like to do in your free time?

Wilson: I spend a lot of time in nature. Right now I’m in my backyard [laughs], and I’m just looking around, checking out what the birds are doing. I like to watch nature––to watch creatures and watch their movements.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Do you have any particular hobbies outside of music?

Wilson: I like to play Texas Hold’em.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: You’re a poker player.

Wilson: Yes, I’m a gambler. If I wasn’t a musician, I’d probably become a professional gambler.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Anyone that goes into jazz music is gambling a little bit.

Wilson: That’s right! [laughs]


Chicago Jazz Magazine: It sounds like you take this seriously. Do you play on-line or go to casinos?

Wilson: Yeah, I’ve been doing this for the past five or six years. I started on-line and gradually got enough confidence to go and start playing the tables at the casinos.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Are you good?

Wilson: Yes.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: If you take it up full time you are going to need to change your name––you’ll need the first name of a city.

Wilson: [laughs] Oh, okay, is that how that works?


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Yes, or maybe a state. You could be “Mississippi” Wilson.

Wilson: [laughs] Sounds good. Yeah!


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Do you have any projects coming up?

Wilson: I’m starting to work on the next recording, and I actually did it when I was in Florence. We spent a week in Florence recording. It’s really great. I think it’s going to be called Guitarra.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: Are you performing guitar on it?

Wilson: Yes, I am. It should be really… interesting.


Chicago Jazz Magazine: She says with trepidation.

Wilson: Yeah. [laughs]

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